Print Story Canadian agricultural policy
Food
By nathan (Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 09:40:38 AM EST) (all tags)
Since I grew up on a farm, I never really thought about agricultural policy. It was part of the air and the water. I took it for granted just as the son of an importer would take for granted an intense daily discussion of tariffs and the WTO. But recently, I've realized that most people are woefully underinformed about this vital issue. They take an adequate food supply and astonishingly low food prices completely for granted.


This is a diary in defense of food subsidies, especially for staple crops (but not excluding others.) The collapse of Third-World agriculture has taught a lot of First-World urbanites exactly the wrong lesson: that agriculture is a developmental backwater and hindrance to national progress. I'm going to argue that the opposite is true, and the moral case is contrary to Canadian national policy (ie, allowing the continuing attrition of farmers,) which policy is also contrary to that of other developed nations.

I'd like to begin by presenting the case of Russia. The top economic priority of the USSR was to get peasants off the land and into urban factories. This brought Russia through the Industrial Revolution in fifteen years. The GDP of the USSR grew annually by doubt digit percentages through much of the twenties and thirties. Literacy rates exploded and Russia became a great, if unrefined, industrial power, on the strengths of her huge population and unparalleled natural resources.

Soviet agricultural policy was corrupted by the progressive ideology of Marxism-Leninism. The USSR never developed an agricultural sector of comparable productive or, equally important, distributive power to that of the USA, even though Soviet science and engineering were in some ways the superiors of their American counterparts. (The Party endorsement of Lysenko's theory of evolution, a Lamarckian theory, also retarded argicultural research in such vital areas as crop hybridization.)

It is a canard in the USA that Reagan drove the USSR to economic collapse by high levels of military spending. I will not consider whether this is true or false, but I will point out that food supplies in Russian cities became increasingly unstable in the late 1980's and were a prime motivator in Gorbachev's final dismantling of the USSR as such.

This must be contrasted with the USA. In the 1900's and teens, there was no such thing as winter vegetables north of the Mason-Dixon line; in the winter, you ate what you had canned in the fall, supplemented by dairy foods, sketchy meat from Chicago, and starchy staples that kept easily. In general, one of the things inclining people dwelling in cold cimates to eat so much meat was that animals could be kept alive until needed, while plants stopped producing once their growing season ended.

The development of California agriculture caused a profound shift in American eating habits. Today, I can walk into Wegman's in Rochester, NY, in the dead of winter, and buy fresh-looking produce shipped from California, Chile, and even Israel. This was entirely unheard of until the development of such potent food preservation and transportation techniques so that lettuce could be shipped 3000 miles and arrive still crisp. Meanwhile, in Eastern Europe, many professionals - doctors, lawyers, scientists - still cultivate garden vegetables and can them in the autumn, because the ones on the shelves in the winter are so sparse, poor, and expensive, that they're not worth it for most people.

The economic impact of this cannot be overstated. Corporations tie themselves in knots trying to figure out how to use skilled workers more effectively. Meanwhile, in the xUSSR, unless you're part of the richest 1%, you have to waste all kinds of time and energy to produce food that is probably less nutritious (certainly if canned) than the bland but reliable California produce that Americans buy on a thirty-minute weekly jaunt to the store. Consider how many physics PhD man-hours in Russia are spent tilling the soil out of necessity, then compare that hypothetical number to the corresponding one in the USA. Then extend this across all industries; factory work is more profitable than gardening, but without high agricultural surpluses, all must garden. In the USA, corn is so cheap that, in season, it is essentially free; around 16 cents a cob, or in other words, six cobs (enough corn for one person to eat for at least two days) for the price of a can of Coke. This is extremely good for the American economy. Food only need occupy a small part of household budgets, unless you constantly eat out, another option never before available (it was usually cheaper to have dedicated servants in the home than to go to restaurants at the turn of the previous century.) The USA began laying the groundwork for this in the 1850's, leading to such phenomena as gourmet free lunches in New York bars in the 1870's, as some food prices fell so far below the traditional price of luxuries that it became temporarily economically viable to give lobster and steak to drinking customers. More to the point of this diary, the cheaper food gets, the more people are able to feed themselves by working in other sectors; cheap food is good for society.

So what does this have to do with Canadian agricultural policy? The USA has seen high rates of attrition among farmers from the 1950's to the present day, as a government increasingly less inclined to subsidize agriculture has led to many families moving off the land. This is a good thing, economically, because those families are genrally engaged in more productive urban occupations today. However, the high levels of attrition allowed agribusiness concerns to buy out more and more farmers, a trend that once begun is hard to stop. Today, agribusiness owns most farmland in the USA; many farm workers are simply tenants, with no stake in the land, and only the company's paycheque to motivate them. Meanwhile, argibusiness has Bush's ear and receives billions a year in free money from the US government.

Canada has a much stronger culture of family farming than does the USA today. This has to do more with Canada's later industrialization and colonization of the Prairies than anything else. My family homesteaded in Saskatchewan in 1908, perhaps fifty years after the average Midwestern family homesteaded, and in consequence, Canadian farmers have been later moving off the land.

In the 1970s, the Canadian government decided to passively allow high rates of attrition among farmers in a misguided attempt to industrialize Western Canada. As no adequate capitalization was provided (and one wonders about industrial growth in places so removed from foreign markets anyway,) the result was the flight of farm families to the cties and to other provinces. At this point, many farmers have jobs in the cities during the off season - effectively subsidizing their own farms from their wages - and high rates of attrition have cut every trace of fat; the only farmers still in business are the very best ones. All the farmers I know under 70 spend a lot of their time ordering technique binders for new crop varieties, doing courses on pulse processing, investing in exotic equipment such as air seeders, and figuring out ways to diversify their rotations even further. They are a serious bunch.

Farmers fear agribusiness to a man. Many have seen what happened to their friends and relatives in the midwestern USA and are terrified of becoming tenants on their own land. They also fear how the agribusiness concerns would treat the land - poorly, in order to maximize short-term production and achieve economies of uniform planning. This is empirically borne out by the much more severely levels of erosion in the midwestern USA. You can see the difference quite clearly on false-colour satellite photos.

One result of farmers' frustration has been the development of a national divide running north-south along the Manitoba-Ontario border. The West went almost completely Conservative in the recent election, despite being the traditional home of the NDP (Canada's left-of-Democrat party, founded originally as a farmer's cooperative in Saskatchewan.) The Westerns I know feel that their concerns about the collapse of agriculture fall on deaf and ignorant ears among Ontario policians, who control the balance of power by virtue of the population of Toronto. They feel abandoned by the federal NDP; many people now vote NDP provincially and Conservative federally, which is quite a contradiction at first glance.

In my considered opinion, Canadian agricultural policy is more shaped by ignorance, callousness, lack of communication, and the lack of a Liberal stake in Western Canada, than by the economic uselessness of unviability of farming. We need to keep the farming sector strong so that we can continue to benefit from cheap food, freedom from influence of destructive agribusiness concerns, and comparatively economically sound land-maintenece techniques. If the situation does not change, Canada will have squandered a valuable opportunity.

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Canadian agricultural policy | 53 comments (53 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
It should be noted.. by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #1 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:06:51 AM EST
That Khrushchev tried to alter this course/do good by the farmer, and was quickly removed.




yeah by nathan (6.00 / 1) #13 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:04:13 AM EST
The Party had an ideological antipathy to farmers, and farmers had less than zero cout at party levels, although I'll admit that Gorby did rise out of agricultural administration.

[ Parent ]

Could use some work by TheophileEscargot (6.00 / 1) #2 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:16:33 AM EST
Spelling:
cimates -> climates
argicultural -> agricultural
genrally -> generally
argibusiness -> agribusiness
cties -> cities
policians -> politicians
land-maintenece -> land-maintenance

Also, the logic seems a bit weak. Subsidized food is cheap? Uh yeah: beer's cheap if  you stick someone else with the bill. Is it really cheaper overall to have a large part of the cost met by the taxpayer? Why?

Is it really true about all those Russian PH.D.s tilling the soil? Links would be handy. If true, is that really because of a lack of subsidy? Or have the decades without competition harmed the Russian agricultural sector?

What about the harm done to developing world countries, who are outcompeted by subisidized developed world farmers? You don't really deal with the ethics of this at all.

Stylistically, I think you overuse parenthetical comments (they disrupt the flow of the article).

I like the idea of this article, but I think it could use a lot more work. Resubmit?
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell


i read the (PhD) point as one of economic dominos by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #4 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:21:45 AM EST
A figurative point being made about the consequences of poor agricultural policy/lack of domestic goods.

No?


[ Parent ]

yeah by nathan (5.00 / 1) #8 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:28:54 AM EST
If every worker needs to spend 10 hours a week, on average, digging his garden, that leaves much less time and energy available for his job.

[ Parent ]

As far as I can tell by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #9 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:31:18 AM EST
He's saying that without subsidized agriculture, people have to grow their own food in their gardens, which wastes the time of skilled workers.

"many professionals - doctors, lawyers, scientists - still cultivate garden vegetables and can them in the autumn, because the ones on the shelves in the winter are so sparse, poor, and expensive"

But I'm not convinced. Surely while the farmers might suffer more under a free market, food would be cheaper overall.

More importantly, under a subidized system, the food is paid for out of tax money. The professional classes earn more money, and thus pay more tax, and thus pay more for their food overall. Subsidies benefit poor or unemployed workers at the expense of high-earning professionals: the effect is the opposite of what he says.

But it's all rather confusing: I might be misunderstanding his argument completely.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

I can have it both ways by nathan (6.00 / 1) #11 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:45:14 AM EST
under a subidized system, the food is paid for out of tax money. The professional classes earn more money, and thus pay more tax, and thus pay more for their food overall. Subsidies benefit poor or unemployed workers at the expense of high-earning professionals: the effect is the opposite of what he says.

Put it this way - it's much more efficient for an American doctor to just pay more for food, via subsidies, than it is for him to give up ten hours a week for inferior nutrition digging potatoes and cucumbers. Food subsidies aren't a way to put more money in a doctor's pocket, but to free up his labour, which is intrinsically more productive than gardening. In fact, his recreation [Marxism: reproduction of ability to work] is more productive than gardening.

Surely while the farmers might suffer more under a free market, food would be cheaper overall.

Government appropriation of money for the purposes of investment in agriculture is a sometimes a more productive use of money than leaving it in the private sector to be invested elsewhere. I'm not asking the earth, just that farmers receive enough to be able to stay in the business if they're thrifty and productive. As it is, most would be financially better off pumping gas or bagging groceries. At this point, you have to ask yourself about the potential gain and loss involved in allowing agribusiness into farming, and weigh it against the cost of some subsidies, not at the sclerotic European levels, of course.

[ Parent ]

easily explained by nathan (3.00 / 0) #10 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:37:26 AM EST
This was meant to be a diary but I twiddled the wrong boxes and it submitted as a story :)

It's true about Russian PhD's. I'll go looking for a link. FWIW, my wife is Romanian, and the situation is similar over there, so for a diary, I didn't feel a link was warranted.

Is it really cheaper overall to have a large part of the cost met by the taxpayer? Why?

Two reasons:

  • It defends you against heavy food imports, which are a persistent drain on national capital. Food imports were a major factor inhibiting Chinese development until the extremely mixed success of the Great Leap Forward.
  • It defends you against the political clout of large-scale agribusiness, which is capable of extracting subsidies for profit by lobbying, rather than simply collecting necessary subsidies for the maintenance of the industry.

    What about the harm done to developing world countries, who are outcompeted by subisidized developed world farmers?

    I've had one person complain the article was unfocused, and now this, so I guess you can't please everybody :)

    Off the cuff, my answer is to look at the Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese experience, where maintaining farmers in the field was established as a national priority. Farming in Korea is much less labour-efficient than in the USA, but paradoxically, the benefits to the Korean economy in the aggregate are much greater than the potential benefits to Korea of dergulating farming. A country doesn't establish food sufficiency by outcompeting more developed nations, which is essentially impossible, but by regulating the most basic industries and working up from there.

    have the decades without competition harmed the Russian agricultural sector?

    On the contrary. It never developed in the first place, because the Communists didn't understand agriculture and didn't invest much in modernizing it. (The USA didn't understand it either, but the free market did its magic there, to an extent.)

    [ Parent ]

  • Lot of it about by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #14 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:09:50 AM EST
    You seem to be the second person today to accidentally post a diary as a story...

    I still don't see the economic logic behind this though. Consider:
    "It defends you against heavy food imports, which are a persistent drain on national capital"

    It seems to me what you call a "drain" is actually trade. Buy corn, sell Alanis Morrisette CDs or whatever. Trade is good, not bad: both sides can specialize in what they're good at. Reducing trade is a cost not a benefit.

    Now: "It defends you against the political clout of large-scale agribusiness, which is capable of extracting subsidies for profit by lobbying, rather than simply collecting necessary subsidies"

    This seems pretty strange logic: we need to support subsidies so that we can reduce subsidies. Just cut out the middle step and don't have any subsidies.

    Regarding your other post: it seems to me from the results of my googling (link, link) that the former USSR has huge and complicated agricultural problems, quite apart from the subsidy issue.

    But even so, agricultural subsidies went from 1/3 of GDP in the Soviet era, to just 1% today (other countries put about 4%). From these articles though, you could argue that the problems are largely because of massive over-subsidization in Soviet times, which caused structural problems that are only slowly being solved. Subsidies are the problem not the solution.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    untrue by nathan (3.00 / 0) #17 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:23:49 AM EST
    It seems to me what you call a "drain" is actually trade. Buy corn, sell Alanis Morrisette CDs or whatever. Trade is good, not bad: both sides can specialize in what they're good at. Reducing trade is a cost not a benefit.

    This is an ideological, not a pragmatic argument. Are you actually arguing for the total dergulation of all industries?

    Reducing some external trade in order to cultivate domestic industries is an essential part of the development of all succesful countries. To argue that this cannot be true even in principle is simply to deny recent, well-documented history. Subsidies are a dangerous tool, because they can easily become entrenched and lead to a lazy industry, cf. continental Europe. But deregulation is a dangerous tool too, because the political influence of a companies can't simply be wished away, and deregulation is always partial and in favour of certain parties.

    I'm not arguing that all food imports are bad, I'm arguing that relying on food imports to keep your food prices low is poor practice. I haven't surveyed the statistics, but a cursory reading appears to show that countries reliant on food imports (Japan, Switzerland, Zimbabwe) have high food prices, the cost the the consumer not offset by lower taxes.

    we need to support subsidies so that we can reduce subsidies. Just cut out the middle step and don't have any subsidies.

    Again, this is wishful thinking. If you can come up with a way to keep money out of politics, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, we have to figure out ways to manage its effect in an imperfect world, one of which is subsidizing a productive class against the power of large accumulations of capital capable of lobbying the government effectively.

    it seems to me from the results of my googling (link, link) that the former USSR has huge and complicated agricultural problems, quite apart from the subsidy issue.

    The xUSSR has huge and complicated problems, period, one of which is that its internal food-distribution network barely exists. I don't mean to suggest that subsidies would fix the xUSSR, only that cheap food would be a boon to its economy. They aren't necessarily in a position to get cheap food, but Canada is in a position to maintain it for themselves.

    From these articles though, you could argue that the problems are largely because of massive over-subsidization in Soviet times

    This is not a refutation. I'm not arguing that subsidies are always good, just that given Canada's peculiar circumstances, they would be good for Canada right now.

    [ Parent ]

    Is true by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #20 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:45:33 AM EST
    This is an ideological, not a pragmatic argument. Are you actually arguing for the total dergulation of all industries?

    (I'm assuming you mean trade deregulation here: you can naturally apply the same health and safety regulations you apply to domestic production to imports).

    But no, it's a pragmatic argument. Free trade generates prosperity: the more the better. There are a few qualifications of course. It needs to be symmetrical; so you need to encourage other nations to drop their import barriers as you drop yours. WMDs are another exception.

    I don't mean to suggest that subsidies would fix the xUSSR, only that cheap food would be a boon to its economy.

    I think increasing subsidies would hurt Russia, especially given that the rest of their economy isn't large enough to support the dead weight of agriculture. Better to invest in distribution infrastructure, and allow the generous taxpayers of Canada, EUia and the US to provide them with cheap imported grain at their expense.

    Look, you do know the real reason for agricultural subsidies, right? Farming takes large amounts of land, which means you have political constituencies devoted mainly to one industry. (You don't tend to get politicians representing mainly IT sysamins). Hence farmers have a disproportionate influence, and political parties find it useful to help the farmers at everyone else's expense. That's the beginning, middle and end of the reason for agricultural subsidies.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    more by nathan (3.00 / 0) #21 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:58:20 AM EST
    But no, it's a pragmatic argument. Free trade generates prosperity: the more the better.

    How is that a pragmatic argument, did someone do a case study on this? You can't simply state an axiom of 19th-century economics as though it were a fact and call that pragmatic.

    Japan became the second-richest nation on the planet behind a thick barrier of import tariffs, patent restrictions and bureaucratic import obstructionism. South Korea did the same thing, and went from a feudal economy in 1950 to the twelfth-largest economy in the world today. I agree that free trade can be good, but I disagree that it is an unrestricted good. Sometimes it is more important for the government to develop or invest in an industry than for it to sit back and hope that the capital just arranges itself. Trade barriers were both a part of Asian success and of American failure in 1960.

    Hence farmers have a disproportionate influence, and political parties find it useful to help the farmers at everyone else's expense.

    While this may be true of British politics, it is not a law of nature. How do you explain the large part that farm subsidies played and do play in the economies of undemocratic states? How do you explain Canada's bucking the trend you predict in order to have essentially no farm subsidies?

    You might consider that subsidies need not operate as direct payments to farmers. In fact, that's probably one of the less efiicient ways to handle them. It would make much more sense to invest in things like reducing the costs of equipment through conservative government financing of equipment purchases, creating an irrigation infrastructure, and so forth. These are the farm-subsidy equivalents of building dams and highways and insuring banks, bahaviour that most people do not question in other industries and social situations.

    [ Parent ]

    Not this again by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #24 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 12:25:22 PM EST
    But no, it's a pragmatic argument. Free trade generates prosperity: the more the better.

    How is that a pragmatic argument, did someone do a case study on this? You can't simply state an axiom of 19th-century economics as though it were a fact and call that pragmatic.

    As I said: specialization and comparative advantage. The idea that free trade is good isn't just an obscure part of "19-th century economics.": it's pretty basic and very very widely accepted.

    This is what bugs me about these arguments that we see again and again on K5 and here. People seem to take it for granted that trade is bad because money or jobs can "go overseas" in the first instance: the point is that more jobs and more money come back. Why do we have to re-invent the wheel and go through the same argument each time?

    Your argument seems to be pretty much based on the "trade is bad" theory. You ought to at least state that early on as an axiom, given that many people will disagree.

    Also, if you're arguing that free trade is bad, you also need to defend the idea that private enterprise is good! If we're throwing conventional economics out of the window, why not just collectivize all the farms and put them under direct central government control? The principles behind private farm ownership are the same: that markets are more efficient that state control.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    read before posting by nathan (3.00 / 0) #25 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01:10:40 PM EST
    I didn't say that trade was bad, I said that not all trade is good. But if you want an explicit profession of faith, "trade usually does good but unrestricted trade does not necessarily do good."

    People seem to take it for granted that trade is bad because money or jobs can "go overseas" in the first instance: the point is that more jobs and more money come back. Why do we have to re-invent the wheel and go through the same argument each time?

    Because it's a shallow, reductive reading of my argument, which is that agricultural production has never been allowed to move primarily overseas in staple crops, for various reasons. Sorry, but I really don't feel that you read my responses carefully.

    [ Parent ]

    also by nathan (3.00 / 0) #26 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01:11:56 PM EST
    I notice that you haven't even bothered to comment on Japan's and Korea's use of trade barriers to foster domestic industries.

    [ Parent ]

    Don't have details about Korea by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #27 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01:44:17 PM EST
    But Japanese protectionism certainly hurt it a great deal, in the 90's especially.

    More details on free trade and protectionism here.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    are you certain you want to be citing by nathan (3.00 / 0) #30 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:02:37 PM EST
    these guys? Why not just link to mises.org while you're at it?

    Anyway, I'm not defending Japanese protectionism in the 90's; it was an error. I am defending Japanese protectionism in the 60's; it was the basis of their taking many industries away from the USA at the time. If they had opened up their economy in the 90's, I don't know if the USA would ever have caught them, but instead they caved to domestic pressure.

    This does not contradict my assertion that free trade is a powerful, dangerous economic tool, not an unequivocally good magic solution to every problem of society.

    Also, you might want to consider that I've argued agriculture to have some fundamental differences from industry, and that pamphlet you linked to says nothing useful about agriculture at all.

    [ Parent ]

    Well by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #32 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:08:40 PM EST
    I notice that I've posted three links backing up my opinions, whereas your grand total seems to be... zero.

    I know I've complained about this already today, but I'm getting kind of pissed off with these HuSi debates where I'm the only one to back up claims: the people who disagree just nitpick and ad-hominem my sources, without producing any actual evidence themselves.

    I think it's a symptom of the growing groupthink on this site. Everyone "knows" certain opinions are right: so why bother to back them up.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    hey now by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #33 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:16:47 PM EST
    R Mutt's done that to me.


    [ Parent ]

    Yeah, that guy never posts enough links [nt] by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #34 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:23:41 PM EST

    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    heh, another misreading by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #35 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:28:44 PM EST
    I think it's a symptom of the growing groupthink on this site. Everyone "knows" certain opinions are right: so why bother to back them up.

    There have been several occasions on which you have attacked my sources and not backed yourself up with your own. Didn't say anything about link posting in general.


    [ Parent ]

    more simply: Pot. Kettle. Black. [nt] by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #36 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:29:16 PM EST



    [ Parent ]

    Not the same thing by TheophileEscargot (6.00 / 1) #37 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:35:35 PM EST
    A mutual battle of links is one thing. Criticizing links without ever posting any of your own is like playing Laser Quest and covering up your sensors so you can never get hit.

    I was thinking of a couple of other people rather than you in this regard though ;-)
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    ahh, you mean as a general practice by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #38 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:37:18 PM EST
    Not with the domain of a thread.

    Sure, point well taken.


    [ Parent ]

    re: me by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #39 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:39:10 PM EST
    It's too bad Dean never got beyond the primary. I would've liked to have seen that bet through to the end. ;-)


    [ Parent ]

    OT: Yeah by TheophileEscargot (6.00 / 1) #41 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:45:08 PM EST
    I did actually support Dean for the nomination, albeit in a tongue-in-cheek way.

    I think now Dean might well have done better than Kerry at this point. I didn't anticipate the whole Abu Ghraib thing: something Dean could have exploited a lot better than (pro-war) Kerry.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    I don't know where you're posting from by nathan (6.00 / 1) #40 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:43:43 PM EST
    I'm posting from school, from a slow computer running IE 5.1, in between shots of typing a complex research paper (preference rules in automating Schenkerian analysis.) None of the research that went into this diary was done on the internet, so it's not like I just have to hit my history to post links. I have other things to work on. Hey, for that matter, this thing was posted op-ed, food.

    Accusing me of HuSi groupthink is a bad strategy because you are here far more than I am and have been for far longer, posting much much more. So much for that.

    Here's what I grabbed in three minutes supporting my assertion that Japanese and Korean protectionism was a good policy in the 1960's:

    a timeline

    a discussion dealing with India & Korea (see "Lessons for Comparison")

    a includes a comparison of approaches to protectionism

    From the previous link:

    Yet, an effective industrial policy to protect newly emerging national industries need not always lead to domestic monopolies. A counterexample to the case typical of Mexico is offered by Japan in the post-war decades where a protectionist policy with different institutional presuppositions brought fierce competition among domestic producers behind a high international tariff barrier similar to that of Mexico. Firms that could hold their own in this domestic rivalry would then find it relatively easy to enter international markets successfully, provided that the domestic markets had grown broad enough to support adequate economies of scale....As part of an integrated policy, the government of Japan, unlike the government of Mexico, promoted rapid growth of the middle class, in order to broaden internal markets.
    Anyway, all developmental econ people take it for granted that protectionism can be a useful, if dangerous, tool.

    [ Parent ]

    That's a lot better by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #45 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 03:06:58 PM EST
    Hmm, when did this become a diary? I thought it was in the queue and heading straight for the post threshold...

    Anyway, that's a much better, valid argument, which I will now attack in two ways.

    1. First, we don't know for sure whether the limited protectionism in this period actually helped. Remember that the weak currencies usually held by developing nations tend to provide a natural import barrier, regardless of restrictions.

    2. Secondly, this argument is based on the developing of a new industry: a "second wave" of industrial production in Toffler's terms. The idea (unproven) is to shelter a new, just developing, field. A: Agriculture doesn't really fit into this. The cost of agricultural production is heavily dependent on labour and land costs: it's not going to get that much cheaper to develop in Canada as against the developing world. B: Agriculture is not a new, developing industry: it's a mature industry: the oldest. With agriculture, we're not talking limited protection in a fledgeling phase, but permanant protection forever.
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    right around the time that I told Hulver it had by nathan (6.00 / 1) #46 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 03:18:12 PM EST
    Been meant to be a diary.

    I wasn't planning on submitting it to queue, and it just as happy that it got yanked.

    First, we don't know for sure whether the limited protectionism in this period actually helped.

    True, but it was universal among the 'economic miracle' countries.

    Secondly, this argument is based on the developing of a new industry

    Sure, I just wanted to show that protectionism could conceivably have its uses. I don't want to see Canada bloat up like the French agro sector either, but I think that a pragmatic intervention today in favour of farmers against agribusiness would be good for Canada. The only thing I'm opposed to is letting Canadian farmers die out in the name of the free market, then agribusiness turning around and extorting much higher subsidies than the disorganized farmers ever could twenty years down the road. That is exactly what happened in the USA - why repeat their mistake?

    [ Parent ]

    Hmmm by TheophileEscargot (3.00 / 0) #47 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 03:25:37 PM EST
    Well I hope you submit it: looked like it was going straight in.

    Thing is: I posted all this as editorial, assuming that it would all disappear from the default/non-logged-in/google view. I might have been nicer if I'd known it would appear. Or at least been more creatively nasty...

    ;-)
    --
    "Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
    [ Parent ]

    sorry man :( by nathan (6.00 / 1) #48 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 03:28:42 PM EST
    I'm going to cut the Russia stuff in the beginning down to functional and maybe add a link or two, probably put it back in tomorrow. Oh, and fix all the spelling bugs you so kindly pointed out.

    [ Parent ]

    groupthink? by dmg (3.00 / 0) #51 Thu Jul 01, 2004 at 12:35:51 AM EST
    We all know the cure for that - a good hard trolling should help educate the groupthinking masses... Oh er, wait maybe not :-(
    --
    Hard work is morally wrong.
    [ Parent ]

    if I thought it'd work by nathan (6.00 / 1) #52 Thu Jul 01, 2004 at 12:53:43 PM EST
    I'd do it.

    [ Parent ]

    Free trade by dn (6.00 / 1) #49 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 08:08:16 PM EST
    People seem to take it for granted that trade is bad because money or jobs can "go overseas" in the first instance: the point is that more jobs and more money come back.
    Low-IQ working class Americans can't compete against the horde of high-IQ Asian industrial peasants. Once their jobs are exported, they have to kiss the middle class goodbye. Screw too many of them at once and US politics falls apart in a nasty way.
    The principles behind private farm ownership are the same: that markets are more efficient that state control.
    The human animal is not designed to be maximally efficient.

        I ♥   
     TOXIC 
    WASTE

    [ Parent ]

    Thoughts by duxup (3.00 / 0) #3 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:16:50 AM EST
    I'm confused the article seems to be an amalgam of various disconnected agriculture issues.  Your second paragraph seems to contain a summery, but at first I thought you were going to be critical of the Canadian system as you describe it, but then you seem to praise it, and then again return to being critical.  Hello?

    It is a canard in the USA that Reagan drove the USSR to economic collapse by high levels of military spending. I will not consider whether this is true or false

    Except that that's just what you do in the first sentence noted above.  If you're not going to consider if it's true or false, tossing out a conclusion seems sort of odd.

    Consider how many physics PhD man-hours in Russia are spent tilling the soil out of necessity, then compare that hypothetical number to the corresponding one in the USA

    I think the whole economic comparison of Soviet industrialism and agriculture to nations like the USA and Canada seems a bit off base.  As for the above statement, the current state of Russia isn't that if you didn't have people farming they'd be off working other great jobs.  They've got a ton of problems that prevent that from happening.

    The USA began laying the groundwork for this in the 1850's, leading to such phenomena as gourmet free lunches in New York bars in the 1870's, as some food prices fell so far below the traditional price of luxuries that it became temporarily economically viable to give lobster and steak to drinking customers

    What groundwork?  That whole statement seems to beg that question but you don't actually talk about that.

    Also, if you know where I can get me some free steak and lobster, please advice.

    Overall while I would agree that developing nations are prevented from competing and growing agriculturally due to western subsidies and hyper efficiency. IMHO the issue isn't so cut and dry to where dropping such subsidies would fix the problem., if that is in fact what you would suggest.

    ____


    responses by nathan (3.00 / 0) #6 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:28:01 AM EST
    at first I thought you were going to be critical of the Canadian system as you describe it, but then you seem to praise it, and then again return to being critical.

    The situation in Canada is better than that in the USA, not due to good policies but historical accidents. There are elements of good and bad, but unless we change things, the bad will take over.

    As for the above statement, the current state of Russia isn't that if you didn't have people farming they'd be off working other great jobs.

    I disagree. I think that industry would be much more efficient if vegetables were available in supermarkets rather than grown at doctors' and scientists' dachas for private consumption. Russians have to work much harder to maintain themselves, in the aggregate, than do Americans, therefore their skilled workers are much less economically efficient. If food were cheaper, that would also free more money for consumption. These things add up.

    What groundwork?

    [ Parent ]

    Disconnected by duxup (3.00 / 0) #15 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:10:04 AM EST
    As for other nations banning imports, that's just crazy.  If the import is cheaper than the local product, how does that work with your cheap food and economic growth theory?  You don't just become hyper productive out of nowhere.

    Sorry but I just see a lot of disconnected arguments with little to nothing to back them up that often conflict.  The Soviet and Russian comparisons are terribly simplistic.
    ____
    [ Parent ]

    ugh by nathan (3.00 / 0) #16 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:14:33 AM EST
    If the import is cheaper than the local product, how does that work with your cheap food and economic growth theory?

    That's only half the theory. The other half is domestic employment for food producers, which has been an obvious an persistent part of the PAC Rim miracle. I misspoke with "banning imports," I simply meant that tariffs should be raised to ensure that domestic producers can continue to function.

    The Soviet and Russian comparisons are terribly simplistic.

    This isn't a monograph. Do you have any more specific criticisms?

    [ Parent ]

    Farmer Jobs by duxup (3.00 / 0) #22 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 12:00:16 PM EST
    Sorry I just don't see it.  You've got the locals benefiting from limiting cheap imports and at then benefiting from cheap food prices (that they've eliminated by limiting cheap imports) and then farmers running off to get these magically appearing good jobs.

    Certainly the third world could possibly benefit from entering the agricultural arena but there's no economic panacea there and even reason to believe they would benefit very little from such a system.

    Then there's your praise for family farms who would be toast under a system where poor nations somehow able to seriously compete.

    It's all so inconsistent and far too simplistic an approach.

    ____
    [ Parent ]

    it's not inconsistent at all by nathan (6.00 / 1) #28 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01:50:08 PM EST
    Certainly the third world could possibly benefit from entering the agricultural arena but there's no economic panacea there and even reason to believe they would benefit very little from such a system.

    I think that you're reading my article as a general prescription. It is not; each situation should be considered on its merits, not in the light of some magical theory. But let me address your objection for a second:

    I never argued that the third world should invest heavily in creating farming jobs. I argued that the third world governments do have a responsibility to ensure an affordable domestic food supply. The best way to do that is not to rely on imports, because that devolves into sharecropping, cf Central America, but to subsidize agriculture at home to ensure that farmers don't get driven off the land en masse. It's not a matter of trying to deindustrialize the country, but rather one of trying to prevent 90% of the population from finding themselves transformed from self-supporting farmers to urban unskilled laborers. How can this possibly be a good thing?

    That's where all the shantytowners (or at least their parents) in Rio, Nairobi, and Turkey came from: rural communities that were put collectively out of business by Western agriculture. The specific problem of these dispossesed peasants is too few trade barriers, not too little trade. This is clear from the examples of the PAC Rim countries: the successful ones have large farm subsidies and have had since the 50's. I mean, are you honestly trying to tell me that Japan would be even richer, if not for its wrongheaded agricultural policy? That Honduras is poor despite its excellent agricultural policy?

    Anyway, all this is tangential to the point of the article, which is that Canada needs better subsidies for two specific reasons: to forestall destructive agribusiness practices from taking root (heh) and to prevent the otherwise unstoppable dividend-subsidies lobbying that will ensue. I argued that family farmers are more, not less efficient farmers than are corporations. I argued that corporate farming precipitates environmental disaster and that's empirically verified: erosion is a much more severe problem in the USA than in Canada, because American farmers are much more careless with land usage, rotations, tilling, and chemicals.

    [ Parent ]

    +1, nathan. by rmg (3.00 / 0) #5 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:26:18 AM EST
    decisions about articles are so much easier here than at k5! what a site!




    [t]rolling retards conversation, period.


    Why keep the farming sector strong? by theantix (6.00 / 2) #7 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 10:28:16 AM EST
    We need to keep the farming sector strong so that we can continue to benefit from cheap food, freedom from influence of destructive agribusiness concerns, and comparatively economically sound land-maintenece techniques.

    As TheophileEscargo aptly pointed out, subsidization does not automatically equal cheap food, it just means paying for it at a different time.  Considering that much of the food subsidies ends up being for export markets, it's not even that -- we are paying for food we don't even eat so it ends up being a wealth transfer (and a shitty one at that).  And that is without addressing the negative effects that our food subsidies have on developing nations.

    For the sake of argument and out of my own ignorance on the topic, I'll grant that you are right about the destructive properties of Agribusiness.  But so what?  How do we lose if we stop producing food domestically and rely on imports instead?  This isn't the 1870s -- quality food can be safely imported from poor countries where labour-intensive farming makes a hell of a lot more sense than it does in Canada and other countries where labour is expensive.

    And no, I don't think that farmers are somehow more deserving of jobs than the rest of the population that is paying to prop them up.  If it makes economic sense to import our food why should the government resist this trend, besides the obvious ploy for votes which as you point out the Liberals/NDP aren't exactly winning anyhow in rural Canada?




    more by nathan (3.00 / 0) #12 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:01:45 AM EST
    subsidization does not automatically equal cheap food, it just means paying for it at a different time.

    Subsidization does not automatically mean more expensive food, either. If it's more efficient to pay for it through taxes than at the grocery store, why not do it that way? Farm subsidies are a way for the government to invest directly in agriculture, just as other subsidies are how the government invests in other industries. In Canada, farm subsidies are a no-brainer, in my opinion, because the gain (ie, maintaining the already highly efficient, ecologically conscious, and largely self-capitalizing and self-training farming class, and preventing the rise of powerful, inefficient, and dirty agribusiness interests) far offsets any potential loss (the cost to the national tax base now, as opposed to twenty years from now, once the farming class is extinct and agribusiness takes over Ottawa.)

    How do we lose if we stop producing food domestically and rely on imports instead?

    [ Parent ]

    More or less by theantix (3.00 / 0) #53 Thu Jul 01, 2004 at 11:24:58 PM EST
    Relying on food imports is economic insanity. It causes a constant drain on national capital; it's part of why poor countries are poor.

    Bullshit.  Bull, shit.  See also: bullshit.  Trade deficits are not the devil -- rich countries can survive quite well during sustained trade deficit conditions.  And food is only one component of that and I can't see what it would be any different than the current trade deficits that USia experiences.

    Also, the idea that poor countries are poor because they don't subsidize their food industries is outright laughable.  Our food subsidies hurt poor countries dramatically because that is one area they would be well suited to but we overpay our farmers instead and they have a hard time coming up with exportable items that don't require a lot of capital.  Farming would be perfect but instead they have to rely on resource exports and mass assembly that requires a lot of manual untrained labour.

    Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm not asking for agricultural welfare.

    You aren't asking for argicultural welfare, just payments to the agricultural sector?  I understand completely. 

    Anyway, you choice isn't between subsidies and no subsidies, it's between subsidies for farmers or higher subsidies for ADM.

    No, we have another choice: let the market decide, import food from countries where it makes the most economic sense to produce them, and stop subsidizing the argicultural sector.  We have better things to spend our money on than to protect a very small segment of our society, the list of worthy donors is so long I won't even begin to list them.

    By the bye, the Liberals seem to think these days that it's more efficient to invest in Paul Martin's family than it is in Western Canada. If only we could lure them into moving West.

    Cheap shot, and a lame one at that.  I don't quite know what your problem is -- just now realizing that farming isn't the wave of the future or something?


    [ Parent ]

    To clarify: by nathan (3.00 / 0) #18 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:34:03 AM EST
    I don't mean to suggest that Russia could improve its economic position simply through raising food subsidies. My example of the gardening Russian PhD was just supposed to demonstrate an extreme case of the ripple effect of high food costs, that food prices can rise so high as to command the physical labour of people with advanced degrees.

    Put it this way. If bread and bread products rose by a dollar a loaf, it would substantially hurt society, wouldn't it? That's what I'm getting at: we have to keep food prices low.



    Endings by miller (3.00 / 0) #19 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 11:42:24 AM EST
    I liked this story, but the ended came a bit suddenly. I was quite surprised you didn't tackle the issue of subsidies on international trade. I think you did tackle the issue of cash-expensive subsidies versus time-expensive manual labour for all, but you could have done with condensing that in the conclusion. Yeah, that's what was missing - a conclusion.

    Doesn't stop it being a thought-provoking submission though. I like.



    thanks by nathan (3.00 / 0) #23 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 12:02:41 PM EST
    I just really wanted to jot some ideas down, but I posted it to stories by accident. If it goes live anyway, I won't complain.

    I was quite surprised you didn't tackle the issue of subsidies on international trade.

    Outside the scope of what I was thinking about. But I'd say, off the cuff, that subsidies needn't be bad in international trade except when a credulous or manipulated government allows its farmers to be dispossesed. This isn't the fault of subsidies abroad, it's the fault of low import tariffs in the importing country (which are often the fault of rich countries, IMF, whatever, but not of those countries' agricultural subsidies per se.)

    [ Parent ]

    -1 by hulver (3.00 / 0) #29 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 01:59:42 PM EST
    Needs some work.
    --
    smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha


    wasn't meant to be an article by nathan (3.00 / 0) #31 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:05:28 PM EST
    I hit the wrong button.

    Any other problems, aside from the typos that TheoSnail kindly wrote up?

    [ Parent ]

    Not really by hulver (3.00 / 0) #42 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:47:02 PM EST
    TheophileEscargot covered it well.

    It does ramble a bit, without anything to back up the rambling, but what do you expect for an op-ed?
    --
    smart, pretty, sane. pick two - georgeha
    [ Parent ]

    I don't think it rambles, actually by nathan (3.00 / 0) #44 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:55:10 PM EST
    The only think I dislike is that I spend too long on Russia rather than getiing in, proving that expensive food is really bad, and getting out. But what do you expect from a diary? :)

    [ Parent ]

    hrm by infinitera (3.00 / 0) #43 Wed Jun 30, 2004 at 02:48:56 PM EST
    Guess some editor intervention happened. I would've liked to have seen more editorial comments, they were sorta interesting threads to follow.

    Ah well.


    [ Parent ]

    -1 too Canada-centric. by dmg (3.00 / 0) #50 Thu Jul 01, 2004 at 12:32:35 AM EST

    --
    Hard work is morally wrong.