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By nathan (Sun Mar 21, 2004 at 07:12:01 PM EST) (all tags)
k5's choking again. Don't bother reading this unless you're 'panoptrik'@k5.


Maybe you should have "done a little work" instead of having your little vitriolic fit.

Take your own advice.

The issue isn't Jesus but Christianity. If you argue that Christianity supports contemporary liberalism, you must explain why most Christians have not been like contemporary liberals.

On the other hand, if you want to argue that Christianity has corrupted the teachings of Jesus, at the very least, you have to explain why your reading of the teachings of Jesus is more authentic and valid than the readings of a 2,000-year-old organization founded by the actual followers of Jesus (we have examples of 1st-century Christian literature and those are organically connected to the Church organizations that grew up in the next few hundred years.) Were it not for the Church, we wouldn't have the very accounts of Jesus's teachings with which you want to refute the Church's reading, so you have your work cut out for you, to say the least.

The world-famous doctor, missionary, humanitarian, and theologian Dr. Albert Schweitzer was likewise no fan of Saint Paul...Famed philosopher Will Durant claims that "[f]undamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ"...Thomas Jefferson once wrote of Paul that he was, "the first great corrupter" of Jesus' teachings...

Making your argument implicitly is a coward's act. That said, Jefferson and Durant are pretty much the opposite of authorities on Christian philosophy, theology, and hermeneutics, and Albert Schweitzer's quote ignores the fact that, of Paul's life's work, we retain a mere 14 letters. Presumably Paul did say and write more, on more topics, in an entire adult life spent as an evangelist. In any case, Schweitzer too is a dead limb on the tree of Christianity, having left no school or lasting influence within convinced Christians or the Church.

But here's the really damning bit:

Pay attention when the fundamentalist types start spewing their hatred and crowing about how righteous they are: they rely heavily on the Old Testament (which Jesus rendered academic) and the writings of Paul (who never actually met Jesus)... [consider] Galatians 3:19-25 (the old Law cannot provide salvation); Romans 7:1-6 (a Christian who follows the old Law commits spiritual adultery); Galatians 3:13-16 (Jesus took away the old Law, nailing it to the cross); Ephesians 2:11-16 (He abolished in His flesh the Law with its commandments and regulations) ... Acts 13:29 (with His death it is fulfilled)
Just who do you think wrote Romans, for pity's sake, except the very Paul you are trying to condemn, you ignorant boob? It's St Paul himself who tells us that the Law cannot provide salvation. He anticipated your argument more than 1,900 years ago. He also wrote all the other letters you're quoting, except for Acts, which we think that St Luke wrote primarily as a history of St Paul's ministry.

Come back when you've done some reading yourself rather than regurgitating, wholly undigested, somebody else's discredited arguments. And before you start quoting ROMANS for heaven's sake read the damn thing.

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I need somewhere to stash this rant | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Who are you trying to impress? by rrng (3.00 / 0) #1 Sun Mar 21, 2004 at 07:38:17 PM EST
An account of the history of the scripture and theology is no argument. It seems to me that the person you respond to just said something you don't like, but which fits the scripture well and your response is an argument from authority (both your own and that of "The Church"). Of course, that is the very reason a critic cannot accept your argument -- it precludes the possibility of criticism.


I ♣ hulver.


good call by tps12 (3.00 / 0) #4 Sun Mar 21, 2004 at 10:31:28 PM EST
Since I will now be able to back up any bite accusations with "sure, I bit...after rmg did!!!!," I'd also like to add a theory as to "why most Christians (except, presumably, those that have – Ed.) have not been like contemporary liberals."

It's pretty clear that most Christians, historically, have not written or probably thought an incredible lot about laissez-faire capitalism, regressive taxes, military supremacy (or foreign policy at all), tort reform, or any of the other fundamental values of contemporary conservatism. Does this mean that Jesus would be a registered Green today? Of course not. What it suggests is that civilization has evolved so much since then that there is no obvious analogy to be made between the ancient and modern discourses. The use of ancient writings to predict how historical or mythical figures would see our world is as intellectually rigorous as Lincoln's San Dimas Address from Bill and Ted; less so, even, since Lincoln was at least a product of the Age of Reason.

Now of course, you could amend your argument. Replace "most Christians have not been" with "in the US, most contemporary Christians are not," and we have the basis for a reasonable debate. Of course, there you run up against actual data (e.g., that while three-fourths of Americans are Christians, a similar number  think the federal government should be doing more to provide basic health care, with 38-44% supporting a Canadian-style single-payer system—even using the lower number for the last statistic, and assuming that all non-Christians take the liberal stance, we're still left with more than 20% of Christians harboring pinko tendencies), and we'll start in on the no-true-Scotsman arguments.

There was a time when grassroots USian Christian movements were strongly associated with abolitionism, workers' rights, separation of church and state (yes, for it), and other progressive social policies. Even if it is true that this association no longer exists (and as I think I conveyed above, I'm far from convinced of this), to suggest or imply that there is any historical foundation for a fundamental conflict between Christianity and progressivism is the worst sort of dishonest revisionism.

[ Parent ]

I have a further refinement by Rogerborg (3.00 / 0) #6 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 01:01:03 AM EST
Which is that most Christians, historically, are brainwashed zombies mindlessly regurgitating what they had beaten into them as children.

Oh, I'm sure that there are exceptions, but even the most free Christian thinker starts from a premise that there is an Invisible Sky Giant, a belief which, if you haven't had it beaten into you, is pretty damn risible.

No, I'm not bringing anything to this debate, but that's because it's farcical to begin with.  No true Scotsman can let such an opportunity to ridicule and taunt cultists pass him by.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

true by tps12 (3.00 / 0) #7 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 04:10:38 AM EST
I almost addressed this in my post. I personally find it disturbing that there has evidently never been an open atheist elected to national public office in the US: at 14% of the population, the non-religious should enjoy better representation in government. Despite this, there are plenty of politicians whose positions on issues I really do agree with, and I suspect that this is true for most atheists as well.

But yes, there is something tragic and surreal about needing to justify policies in the context of a fairy tale thousands of years old.

[ Parent ]

why hasn't there been a black president? by nathan (3.00 / 0) #9 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 07:58:32 AM EST
Or Mexican!

[ Parent ]

And you're no true Scotsman, by kyzr d00d (3.00 / 0) #8 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 05:26:04 AM EST
you're a self hating Jock with a Sassenach wife. It also appears, to this atheist, at least, that your religious education concluded permanently at age 12.

カイザー! WHAT YOU SAY !!
[ Parent ]

You're so right. by Canthros (3.00 / 0) #12 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 09:03:27 AM EST
Why, there's absolutely no intellectual justification for a theist worldview, and all those philosophers have got it all wrong. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Must've been those damned dirty Christians beating their worldview into my head as a child.

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I'm not here, man.


[ Parent ]

I expect better from you, frankly by nathan (3.00 / 0) #11 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 08:11:44 AM EST
It seems to me that the person you respond to just said something you don't like, but which fits the scripture well and your response is an argument from authority (both your own and that of "The Church").

Actually, the person I'm responding to condemned Paul on the strength of Paul's own writings. He claimed in one breath that fundamentalists rely on Paul to legitimize their use of the Old Testament, and in the next used Paul's dismissal of the Old Testament as a justification for dismissing fundamentalists. This could work if he had claimed that the fundamentalists were misreading Paul, but he wasn't that smart. He just didn't know that it was St Paul who wrote Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, and Romans. In brief, he didn't know who St Paul was. He'd read some random anti-Pauline screeds and concluded from that that Christianity minus Paul must be where it's at. This is one of the most intellectually bankrupt statements possible.

Anyway, I posted this diary here only because I didn't have anywhere else to save it, so if you don't like it, tough titties to you.

[ Parent ]

Expected better? by rrng (6.00 / 1) #13 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 10:30:10 PM EST
Hell, you should be grateful for what you got.


I ♣ hulver.
[ Parent ]

Yeesh by ucblockhead (6.00 / 3) #2 Sun Mar 21, 2004 at 07:48:47 PM EST
When you start trying to move flamewars to other sites because the original site is down...that's when you know you have a problem. Sit down, relax...have a beer...get a blowjob. Take a break, the argument isn't going anywhere.
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ウセーバラケダ


heh by nathan (3.00 / 0) #10 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 08:04:56 AM EST
When you start trying to move flamewars to other sites because the original site is down...that's when you know you have a problem.

Or that you wrote the original post on a computer where you can't save locally, and you don't feel like retyping.

Sit down, relax...have a beer...get a blowjob.

Better: I went home, had a bourbon, and watched Animal Crackers (a friend has my Duck Soup.) My wife was busy grading papers for the class she had to teach this morning.

I'm betting that had this been a rant about, say, Howard Dean, you wouldn't have minded at all, so I conclude that it's you who has the problem with public professions of religious belief, even ones I specifically told you not to even bother reading.

[ Parent ]

Awesome. by Canthros (3.00 / 0) #3 Sun Mar 21, 2004 at 09:26:54 PM EST
It's a flame war centered around my freshman year of high school.

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I'm not here, man.




Don't read this unless you're nathan's mother by Rogerborg (3.00 / 0) #5 Mon Mar 22, 2004 at 12:08:06 AM EST
I got the results back from the clinic, and there's no way you couldn't have known what you were carrying.  You really need to call me, before I have to get lawyers involved.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.


I need somewhere to stash this rant | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback